Chibi Drunk Sanzo Adventures - A little behind the times, but my initial take on FFXII

The characters are recycled
But isn't that the point of Final Fantasy? That the same group of souls are damned to eternal reincarnation in an unending series of alternate universes (with different hair and eye colors and tailors and dpi/fpi rate) and forced to relive the same vaguely similar sequence of events until the end of all time and/or Square Enix?
just like Gundam...

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*sighs* That's the problem. It wasn't always like that. It's only recently that they've really started calling in the characterization. Yeah, there were usually a couple stereotyped ones, but even they would throw you someting to make you go "Whut? Dude!"

*snerk* I sound like an old woman. "Back in my day, Final Fantasy characters had character!"

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It's been a long time since we've played all the way through 12, but we liked it a lot. We're rarely surprised by anything, so we don't think predictability or the lack thereof is a factor in how good something is. Also, it means we don't know if it gets less predictable.

The music's hard to remember because it's so complex. That's just how Hitoshi Sakimoto works--lots of pretty sounds that work together, but still hard to pick out the melodies. I have the sheet music, and I still can't remember most of the tunes (of course, that has a lot to do with my being distracted by FF9 music instead; it's just so dang much fun to play). Still, his arrangement of the chocobo theme is one of our favorites♥

We suspect the characters are better when better acted. We liked Vaan a whole lot better in Revenant Wings, when he never said anything out loud. But Athena says it's really all about the hunt system anyway.

But really, the important thing to remember when playing Final Fantasy XII is that Basch is played by the same guy who plays Blooregard Q. Kazoo.

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Okay, keeping in the Bloo thing might make it really more amusing. XD

I don't know, complex music hasn't really been all that forgettable to me. I'm not saying it's not pretty music, but it's also not remarkable. At least I haven't come across any that was.

I don't think it's just me being able to guess and predict what's going to happen. I don't know. I usually don't have a problem with that, but then again, usually there's something in the FF games that hooks me reasonably early, that makes me wonder what's going on. This one it feels more like they just copied and pasted a generic "epic fantasy" script.

I will keep playing. I want to do more with the hunt system, I'm just not far enough in to really mess with it much.

Also, why oh why can't they just include the Japanese track? ;_; They already have the subtitles!

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Don't worry about it so much; it's not the only Final Fantasy you weren't head over heels for. But we are curious, since it tends to come up every so often--what exactly is it that makes the characters one-dimensional? Or what is it that they need to have more dimensions? (Our guess would be decent voice actors, because if you read the translations without listening, the lines all seem pretty good.)

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It's not the voice acting that makes somebody one-dimensional (although that doesn't help things in this case). It's when they only have one facet to their personality. I know my perceptions may change as I keep playing, but for now there's just not much there with the characters. Take Vaan, as an example. He's the tragic orphan-thief with a good heart and dreams of something bigger. And that's it so far. There's nothing else to him. I'm hoping we'll get more of a past or motivation for Balthier, but right now he's the handsome pirate with a secret heart of gold. (Now that I think about it, he's kind of like an aristocratic Han Solo. Which would make Fran Chewbacca. *snerk*) We don't know much at all about Fran, so she's the tough and aloof female eye candy.

I had hope for Vayne when he made that speech to Rabanastre when he become consul. I thought he might actually be sincere. And then they revealed very soon after that the scene when the king was killed was set up for Reks' benefit, and Vayne really is evil. So he's the suave villain who makes people think he's good.

I'm not saying things won't change. More personality traits and motivations might show up still, but I'm seven hours in and there's no hint of it. I know most FF games have the same thing, the characters start out simple then get more depth, but usually there are hints of it beforehand. A look here, a reaction there. And I'm not saying even then that all the main characters in all the games have depth. I dunno, maybe it's just because of Vaan. You spend so much time as him before you get other party members and he just has no depth at all.

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Fran and Balthier both get backstories later...but you won't get to Balthier's at least until pretty close to the end. Honestly though, I think I liked the game so much because it was my first FF and I got to whack things a lot. ^__^ And hey, if you get tired of the "plot" and "characters" you should go off hunting. Good times, those are. There's also a fishing game somewhere...

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Technically, Vaan is supposed to be kinda flat, like an Everyman sorta person. He's the perspective character, but the story isn't about him. He's just there to be the eyes.


Or so I heard.

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Ah, that makes a little more sense. I think it's kind of dumb, but it makes more sense. XD

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The real hero is Fran's butt Balthier Ashe.

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Were you the one who posted the music video back when of Balthier "singing" Baby Got Back? XD

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I so was. <3

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See, that's what had us confused, because we were thinking about it and we were like, "Now, I think 'flat character' refers to a character that only has one aspect that defines them, but Vaan is a tragic orphan, he has a good heart, and he has dreams of something bigger. That's more than one thing." Of course, that still kind of makes him cliche, but we always thought of FF12 as Star Wars meets Lord of the Rings anyway. (You're not the first to have made the Balthier/Han Solo connection *grin*) And of course that doesn't necessarily mean "not boring" either.

I really do think the voice acting is causing problems here. We were recently talking to one of our rewriter friends about how different translations are like different ways of portraying the same character, but a bad translation can make an awesome character really dull and uninteresting. It's the same way with acting, and we really noticed that the second time we started playing through this game. Like we said, Vaan is awesome (to us, anyway) in Revenant Wings. When we ignore the voice acting, Vaan does have plenty of depth--it's just that the voice actor can't seem to let go of the "angry teenager" aspect of Vaan.

Another thing we noticed in our second playthrough is that there are hints of Backstory, but they're subtle enough that you probably don't really notice them unless you Know.

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I didn't do a good job of describing what it is to be a flat character. I was mistaken and just not using the right words before. Flat and one or two-dimensional characters don't have Just One Motivation, end of story (the phrases one dimensional and two dimensional are usually used interchangably). So it's Wikipedia to the rescue!

"A flat character is distinguished by its lack of a realistic personality. Though the description of a flat character may be detailed and rich in defining characteristics, it falls short of the complexity associated with a round character."

"Round characters are characters who are complex and realistic; they represent a depth of personality which is imitative of life. They frequently possess both good and bad traits, and they may react unexpectedly or become entangled in their own interior conflicts. These characters have been fully developed by an author, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and are detailed enough to seem real."

I'm not saying Vaan won't develop more later, but right now he really is coming across as unrealistic to me. The voice acting probably is adding to that, but even just his lines are... meh. Being cliche usually leaves characters flat as well. So yeah, there's been a bit more developing as I've played, but that was with people other than Vaan. After 9 hours of playing I was hoping for a little more development from, you know, the main character. =P

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The problem with that definition of a flat character is how do you define a character as being realistic? When Tohru Furuya came to AX, since he's really big in the Gundam fandom, somebody asked him how he felt about Gundam Seed, and he said he didn't like it because the characters weren't realistic. But if you were to ask us, we can relate with a lot of traits of a lot of the characters in Gundam Seed, which means we have those traits, which means they're real, which means they should be realistic. So by defining a flat character as "unrealistic," you make the definition relative, when it should be fixed.

Also, there are so many different types of people that it's hard to say for sure that any type of personality is unrealistic. Add to that the existence of different cultures where people grow up doing things that may seem strange and completely unthinkable to people from another culture, and really anything can be defined as realistic or unrealistic depending on which point of view you want to take.

So we went to Dictionary.com, which gave us more fixed definitions for flat and round characters. Thus we continue our investigation to see whether Vaan is flat or round.

Flat definition one: an easily recognized character type in fiction who may not be fully delineated but is useful in carrying out some narrative purpose of the author.

Considering that Vaan is carrying out the narrative purpose of letting the player get to the next part of the story, this fits. He is easily recognized, but he is fully delineated. We know his personality, background, and motives--all the requirements in

Round character definition one: a character in fiction whose personality, background, motives, and other features are fully delineated by the author.

Now round character definition two (a complex literary character with fully developed and dynamic traits) might be a little more difficult for Vaan to clear, but you'd have to play through the whole game to know for sure. Having played through the whole game, including the voice acting (in which Vaan shifts from "angry angry angry all the time" to "okay I'm a little calm now"), we'd say that Vaan does have dynamic traits. As for the complexity... I think that's there from the beginning, considering the fact that he's dealing with the death of his parents and, recently, his brother, things that make him hate the Empire and war in general, and the government for making his brother fight in the war (even though Reks wanted to fight, Vaan doesn't let that stop him from hating it--that seems pretty complex and realistic), and yet he finds himself in the middle of the resistance, basically making him a soldier.

Anyway, flat character definition two: a literary character whose personality can be defined by one or two traits and does not change in the course of the story. I think we already covered this.

And definition three: characters as described by the course of their development in a work of literature. Flat characters are two-dimensional in that they are relatively uncomplicated and do not change throughout the course of a work. By contrast, round characters are complex and undergo development, sometimes sufficiently to surprise the reader.

Again, we think he's got some complex issues to work through, and that he changes somewhat as the work goes on. But it's a loooong game, and it really takes a while before you get into any major plot stuff. Athena says it's to let you get used to the gameplay.

Still, we actually didn't care much (or like, at all) for Vaan until Revenant Wings, so we're by no means telling you that You Must Like Him. We just don't think the term "flat character" is an accurate description, and it's one of our buttons.

Besides, flat characterization isn't necessarily a bad thing. Link's got about as much personality as his sword, but we love him anyway♥

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Ah, but all of my thoughts were based on less than 10 hours of gameplay. At that point, you really don't know much about Vaan's motivations or any of that. He is relatively uncomplicated. He hates the empire, wants to be a sky pirate, is fiercely loyal to his friends, and that's what you know. I don't know if I was clear before, but I didn't mean to say he would always stay that way, and that he wouldn't develop into a rounder character. It's just that you're only Vaan for quite awhile, so there aren't any other characters to create a group dynamic which would help with fleshing out the character.

And just because Link doesn't talk doesn't mean he doesn't have personality! ...Okay, yeah, he doesn't really in earlier games, but he has some great expressions that flesh him out some more in Twilight Princess. Some in Ocarina of Time, too. And, um... uh... okay, he has no personality, but it's such a blank slate you can put your own on him, and... yeah! ...Man, I need to play Twilight Princess again.

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Oh no, you were clear. We're just saying that all those things you listed--hating the empire, wanting to be a sky pirate, being fiercely loyal to friends--are his motivations and personality. Also, his background is revealed within the first few minutes of meeting him. So he fits definition of a round character (1) perfectly. So it is our opinion, that regardless of his degree of interestingness, Vaan is not flat, even within the first ten hours of the game.

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And I disagree. I find him to be flat and unrealistic. I think in this case we're not going to come to a consensus.

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We're sorry for being so stubborn about this. It all started back in college when you said you'd like Disney movies better if the characters weren't all flat. We didn't think to ask what you meant by that back then, and when someone whose opinion we really respect says that there's something wrong with something we really love, we tend to start obsessing over the why. So when the same comment came up again, after we thought we'd figured out what a flat character was, we wanted to know what we were missing, since, while it's true we don't care much about most of the FF12 characters, we didn't really think they were flat. And then it turned to an argument, I guess because we wanted to validate our opinion (we were hoping it sounded like an honest investigation, but I guess we failed).

So that being the case, we just have one (er, three, but they all go together; to prevent potential follow-ups) question that remains unanswered, and we promise not to argue about it anymore.

Why is it that the things we've all listed about Vaan aren't enough to make him a round character? What is he lacking specifically? If it's realism that he lacks, then what makes him unrealistic?

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I reserve the right to revise my opinion on Disney. I really don't know why I said that, most Disney characters do have depth. Snow White's a little shallow (in the sense that she's kind of a ditz), but she was supposed to be. So, I apologize for that.

As for Vaan, it was more that he hadn't moved out of the cliche when I wrote the post. In fact, he only started to last night as I was playing. (Yes, I am still playing. It's more fun now, and I may have just been in a bad mood when I posted before.) In my mind, when people fall back on the cliche, it's because they couldn't come up with a better character. That makes the character flat and uninteresting, and a bit unrealistic. Vaan is an orphan, therefore he must be a pickpocket. Even though he's a pickpocket, he must have a heart of gold. I understand that cliches are often necessary for beginning characters, but it took Vaan a long while to start to move out of it. When he's the only character you have, it gets annoying.

The things you listed aren't quite enough to move him into being a round character in my mind because despite the motivations that could have sent him many places in personality, within a few minutes of playing I could tell you exactly what Vaan would do, how he would do it, what he would say, and how he would react to any given situation. That didn't change after nine hours. Heck, that didn't change after 20 hours. After awhile I can usually get a good enough sense of a character to be able to do that, but with Vaan it was in the first five minutes of playing him.

Also, Vaan runs like a dainty girl trying not to run like a girl. This has no bearing on the discussion, but I thought I'd throw it out there. XD (Ashe runs like a dainty girl, too, which is kind of annoying because in the cut scene when you first meet her she shows great prowess in battle. People who can fight like that don't run like that. I blame the motion capture actors.)

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Thank you for answering our question!

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Butting in here, sorry

Link is the awesome, tha's why. ^-^x

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He totally is! I guess when your one dimension is "awesome," it's okay to be flat *grin*

(We don't have a Link icon, though, so we'll have to use Sora instead.)

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He's so fun to play with. But he does have some personality beginning with OoT, what with the facial expressions. He's adorable in WW.

(I got plenty!)

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That's a good point. And he has background in that his village was burned down so the Deku Tree took him into Kokiri Village, and he has motive in that the Deku Tree told him to go do stuff. So I guess he really is a round character! Yay!

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And then you can add in the manga stuff and fanon and give him even more! And in TP he has his home to protect and, y'know, Midna and Zelda.

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Well, in TP, he's a whole other Link. He even has a larger range of emotion. He kind of depends on advances in computer graphics, since he doesn't talk, so whatever Link comes next will probably be even more complex.

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I liked it! But I also really, really like Balthier, Fran and Basch, so that could be the reason. >.> Basically it was fun and I love the world of Ivalice so it worked out for me.

And it's pretty. Oh so pretty.

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It really is very, very pretty. So pretty. I really like how Fran even sounds like she's not quite human, like her face and mouth aren't quite shaped like ours and aren't made for speaking our words. That was a nice touch. ^_^

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Ooooh yes. So great.

And while we're on Fran, I love her VA. In Japanese she has this deep sultry voice, which works, but something about the raspy high voice makes her sound more foreign and I loves it. Balthier's is also good, although his Japanese VA is quite awesome as well.

But in general I'm happy with the voice acting. Especially after 10. And it's way better than poor Suikoden's. ;_;

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Once more I am going to lament that they don't just put the Japanese track on there, too. Seriously, how hard would that be? ;_; Do they mess with the lip flaps in the game to fit it with the English? And if they do, what's the problem with just putting the Japanese vocals there? It's not like the mouths have to match in Japanese if the game is primarily for an English-speaking audience. I will pout about that for all time. *POUT*

(I'm also going to use my own "Big damn heroes" icon for no other reason than you used one. ^_^)

Edit: Thinking back on 10, I seem to remember Tidus was okay, but I cringed every time Yuna spoke in the beginning. She got better by the end. Some.

I need to play the Suikoden games, I think. *nod* And ignore the VAs.

Edited at 2009-05-08 03:48 pm (UTC)

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I think it woulda taken up too much space? I'm sad at the lack of one too but, again, I rather enjoyed listening to Balthier everyone.

You can always Youtube some cutscenes in Japanese? Or their Quickenings. Mmm, Quickenings.


I...hated Tidus' voice. >.> I liked Auron and Lulu and Wakka amused me. But Yuna. Oh gosh Yuna. -_-x I will never forgive her for the Yunalesca cutscene, no matter how much she improved in X-2.


AND YES, PLAY SUIKODEN. Wars and betrayals and awesomesauce battle system (discounting 3 and 4) and political things~ ...And loads and loads of ridiculously attractive people. >.>


(Big Damn Heroes for the wiiin~)

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Mwhahaha, you have stepped into the twilight zone otherwise known as FFXII. ^o^

Though, seriously you have to have different expectations for FFXII than for any other FF game. I basically treat it like an MMORPG without the clutter of other players and with an actual ending point.

The story doesn't pick up until you actually understand what's going on (which takes awhile since you're playing a nobody) but once it starts it goes crazy. Though to be honest I love the game so much more on the second time through--when you don't have to find out what'll happen next and can appreciate the real strength of the game. The world. Even now I haven't explored all the areas. Oh just thinking about it makes my thumbs itch. ^o^

Anyway, you don't have to love the game--everyone has different tastes, but if you enjoy beating up things a lot, and exploring areas that evolve as you progress through the game, then you should continue to give the game a shot. (The plot does improve [since you're basically still in the prologue], but if you're looking for FFVII or sommat, you're gonna be dissapointed.)

p.s. don't be impressed with the license system. It's not impressive. At all. Be impressed with the gambit system, for it is le awesome. Wow this ended up being long...I hope you enjoy it if you decide to keep playing it--but if not, no big, it's only a video game ^o~

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The game is more fun now. I may have just been in a bad mood when I was playing before. *snerk* You're right about the MMORPG aspect, though. I keep thinking, "This is like WoW, except you don't get money from quests. Except the hunts." (It's probably closer to FFXI, but I've never played that one so I have no frame of reference.)

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Ya know, I keep forgetting FFXI exists, but that probably is why FFXII is the way it is... I've kind of got this theory that they started branching off from the classic FF concept with X and have started to return to it gradually. And FFXI really completes that theory. On that note, can I just say I'm really looking forward to the crazy experience FFXIII promises to be. ^O^ It seriously looks like it's gonna be a special kind of crazy nuts.

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Mmmm...Balthier....

FFXII makes a better MMORPG than the first .hack game, amusingly.

The game does get better, when the plot twists start showing up, but I wouldn't expect Vaan to get too interesting, at least not compared to the others. I played the whole game visualizing Vaan as a walking cardboard standee (not necessarily a bad thing, but it made him forgettable next to Balthier, Fran, Basch, and Ashe, in that order).

As for music, most of it was so-so to me. Very pretty, but none too memorable. I love the boss music, though, as well as the esper music, and there were one or two areas with neat themes as well.

And one thing that greatly amuses me looking back on the gameplay is that the malboros are probably the least frightening version of the creatures I've ever encountered in a FF game. They certainly don't hold a candle to the ones in VIII or X.

/rambling

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